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  #16  
Old 29-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post
I still maintain that Ron Dennis, on this track, made the right decision.....I didnt like it, because like any F1 fan, I want to see battles, but it simply would not make sense, on any other track of course they should have been left to battle it out.
I suppose that we have to remember that F1 is a business first and a sport second; that goes for the likes of Bernie Ecclestone and the individual teams themselves. Ultimately - albeit with some exceptions, such as Michael Schumacher - the drivers are merely pawns in a much larger game in which politics and money are the kings and queens.

Ron Dennis' decision could well have been justified on the basis of common sense, but he took it beyond that when he smugly faced the cameras, told the world his cars / drivers were hardly trying and then that he'd basically determined the outcome of the race, which apparently is "his job". In fact it's been suggested that the outcome was predetermined, based on Alonso being able to maintain his position as he did. Therefore to my eyes and to many others, there's a feeling that by loading up Hamilton's car to the gunnels with fuel, the idea was to ensure that Alonso romped away while Hamilton was left to provide a supporting role as a buffer in second place. That's hardly giving both your drivers an equal shot at the win, is it..?

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Ron Dennis just needs to keep quiet about these sorts of decisions in front of the cameras......I just hope they dont have to pay for it by way of point losses for both Alonso, Hamilton. I think it would be wiser to disallow the manufacturer points for the race.
Ron Dennis - putting to one side Ian's assertions that he's a decent bloke when he's off-camera - has really put his foot in it. He came across as he always does - smug, self-satisfied and arrogant - and on this occasion it's potentially landed him in trouble. I don't for one second feel that the drivers deserve punishment of any kind, but if the team loses it's constructors points, Ron'll think twice about his conduct in the future. As for his drivers, well I just hope he gives Hamilton the chance to win races, because right now I'm 100% convinced that if Alonso is in front, he'll stop Lewis from racing him.

I'm now just waiting to be proved wrong...
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  #17  
Old 29-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by lumix View Post
For what it's worth, I think Ross Brawn won more races than Schuey. It's not just the driver that wins races, it's the TEAM behind them.
So all the other teams' technical directors have been responsible for winning races and championships then? Ross Brawn has never won a race on his own, and neither has any other technical director or pit crew member...

Ross Brawn was / is a great strategist, but it was Schuey driving the car. If they happened to make a great partnership, then that's what won all those championships. F1 has always been about the whole package, but it's the drivers who make that difference.

Schuey was the best - he probably always will be. Everything else is just personal opinion.
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  #18  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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So all the other teams' technical directors have been responsible for winning races and championships then? Ross Brawn has never won a race on his own, and neither has any other technical director or pit crew member...

Ross Brawn was / is a great strategist, but it was Schuey driving the car. If they happened to make a great partnership, then that's what won all those championships. F1 has always been about the whole package, but it's the drivers who make that difference.

Schuey was the best - he probably always will be. Everything else is just personal opinion.
hahah! That's your personal opinion, cos it sure ain't mine

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  #19  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by Bearface View Post

Ross Brawn was / is a great strategist, but it was Schuey driving the car. If they happened to make a great partnership, then that's what won all those championships. F1 has always been about the whole package, but it's the drivers who make that difference.

Schuey was the best - he probably always will be. Everything else is just personal opinion.
I will agree with this one 100%. How many times have we heard Ross say I told Schuey that we need you to push and then Ross has said he then put in lap after lap like no other driver I have seen.

The thing with schumacher is you either like or not. We all have our drivers that we think are the best. When someone else comes along and has eight championships then we can say he is no longer the best but till then the record books will always have him down as the best. Ok I know someone will come back and talk about how he won them but remember not all the other drivers have been as pure as the driven snow.
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  #20  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
hahah! That's your personal opinion, cos it sure ain't mine
Schuey being the best isn't my personal opinion, it's a fact. He won more races, more championships and scored more points per season on average than any other driver in history. He may have ven eclipsed Sennas pole record, but I'd have to check that one. Regardless, his record speaks for itself, but his superiority certainly isn't subject to anyone's personal opinion...

Now, whether you liked the guy, his driving style and his attitude to the sport is another matter entirely. Personally I did, but I get the sneakiest feeling you might feel differently..........well, that's certainly something we can put down to personal opinion
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  #21  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by Bearface View Post
Schuey being the best isn't my personal opinion, it's a fact. He won more races, more championships and scored more points per season on average than any other driver in history. He may have ven eclipsed Sennas pole record, but I'd have to check that one. Regardless, his record speaks for itself, but his superiority certainly isn't subject to anyone's personal opinion...

Now, whether you liked the guy, his driving style and his attitude to the sport is another matter entirely. Personally I did, but I get the sneakiest feeling you might feel differently..........well, that's certainly something we can put down to personal opinion
Well, with respect Tim, one could argue that he won in a car that is very different to that of Senna's time, and Senna's car was very different to that of Fangio's, Stirling Moss, and the likes time, so its difficult to say whether he was the best driver. Certainly the most succesfull in Formula One, but the best......I am not so sure.....I would love to see what he could do in a car minus all the driver aids and a limited amount of downforce. I am not saying he wouldnt be great, but we just dont, and possibly will never know

Anyway.....on a lighter note, McLaren have just been cleared!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39437
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  #22  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post
Certainly the most successful in Formula One, but the best......I am not so sure.....I would love to see what he could do in a car minus all the driver aids and a limited amount of down force. I am not saying he wouldn't be great, but we just dont, and possibly will never know
So that would be go carts and Formula Ford then.

It was there that the family became involved with karting. Michael, only four at the time was given a kart powered by an old lawn-mower engine by his father. From so humble a beginning was a World Champion's career launched. Karting became a family obsession fed by the resourcefulness of the elder Schumacher and the spirit of young Michael. Rolf Schumacher's mechanical ability led him to work part-time repairing other go-karts at the local track. In 1980 he traveled to Nivelles, Belgium for the World Karting Championship and saw a driver that impressed him deeply, that driver was Ayrton Senna. Michael was soon making a name for himself and in 1984 he won the German Junior Championship. The European championship came his way in 1987.
The path to car racing started with Formula Ford or Formula Koenig as it was known in Germany. To compete at this level Schumacher would need sponsors and lucky for him several sponsors including Jurgen Dik had noticed the young German. His first full year competing in the series saw him win nine out of ten rounds. Willie Weber, his future manager, was running his own Formula Three team and gave Michael a test in one of his cars. After seven or eight laps he was setting times 1 1/2 seconds faster than Webber's regular driver.
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  #23  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post
Well, with respect Tim, one could argue that he won in a car that is very different to that of Senna's time, and Senna's car was very different to that of Fangio's, Stirling Moss, and the likes time, so its difficult to say whether he was the best driver. Certainly the most succesfull in Formula One, but the best......I am not so sure.....I would love to see what he could do in a car minus all the driver aids and a limited amount of downforce. I am not saying he wouldnt be great, but we just dont, and possibly will never know

Anyway.....on a lighter note, McLaren have just been cleared!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39437
Good news!

The very fact that we are here debating Michael Schumacher in this fashion is perfect evidence to support the fact that although he is on record as the most successful F1 driver of all time, that success is not equal to being the 'best' for a large number of people.

If he was the best, one just has to ask why he needed to control the team in order to stifle efforts by his team mates to beat him.

With someone else (Ross Brawn), largely, to do the thinking during the race, I wonder how he would have done in the less communications-led racing days?

To me, the greats are Stewart, Senna (though as a person I disliked him), Mansell (not for his personality but his racing ability) and Alain Prost (the great thinking GP driver). All these drivers faced up to real, un-suppressed, competition from their team mates but went on to be champions.

Schumacher manipulated his chances off the track and so avoided challenges from within his team, something none of the others needed to do.

I could never understand why Ferrari did this; in effect they were saying that the driver was more important than the car. Enzo Ferrari would never have allowed this. The Schumacher Ferrari era team should have been renamed the Schumacher team.

And Schumacher fans can argue all they like, but this cloud over his reputation will never ever go away. Sorry guys, but that's the unassailable truth.

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  #24  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Good news!

The very fact that we are here debating Michael Schumacher in this fashion is perfect evidence to support the fact that although he is on record as the most successful F1 driver of all time, that success is not equal to being the 'best' for a large number of people.

If he was the best, one just has to ask why he needed to control the team in order to stifle efforts by his team mates to beat him.

With someone else (Ross Brawn), largely, to do the thinking during the race, I wonder how he would have done in the less communications-led racing days?

To me, the greats are Stewart, Senna (though as a person I disliked him), Mansell (not for his personality but his racing ability) and Alain Prost (the great thinking GP driver). All these drivers faced up to real, un-suppressed, competition from their team mates but went on to be champions.

Schumacher manipulated his chances off the track and so avoided challenges from within his team, something none of the others needed to do.

I could never understand why Ferrari did this; in effect they were saying that the driver was more important than the car. Enzo Ferrari would never have allowed this. The Schumacher Ferrari era team should have been renamed the Schumacher team.

And Schumacher fans can argue all they like, but this cloud over his reputation will never ever go away. Sorry guys, but that's the unassailable truth.

Ian
I agree totally with that statement, well put Ian. And a recent TV programme highlights most of the points you made.
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  #25  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post
Well, with respect Tim, one could argue that he won in a car that is very different to that of Senna's time...
He won his first two championships in cars that were essentially "of" Senna's time; in fact he actually raced Senna as a rookie. He won more races and scored more points in his first five seasons than Senna did in his. Oh, and in the mid/late 80's (when Senna was prolific), the cars were actually more advanced (active ride, traction control... etc) and much more powerful (upwards of 1500 BHP...) than they were during the bulk of Schumacher's career...

...Oh, and Senna drove on slicks for 100% of his career, whereas Schuey was driving very much in the era of grooved tyres and all the problems they caused...........plus, overtaking was far easier in Senna's earlier days, and although the cars were more tail-happy in the corners back then, an oversteery chassis was very much how Schuey liked his cars set up, so he'd have flourished in the 80's in any case...

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post
...and Senna's car was very different to that of Fangio's, Stirling Moss, and the likes time, so its difficult to say whether he was the best driver. Certainly the most succesfull in Formula One, but the best......I am not so sure.....
Fangio, Moss, Stewart, Clarke..........they were all great drivers of their times, but none of them achieved the results - relative to their peers - that Schumacher did. Only Fangio came anywhere close, but even his statistics don't compare to Schuey's. I'm not going to spend time cutting and pasting Schumacher's F1 records, but suffice to say that if you do your research as I have done, you'll see that in almost every possible area, he's consistently beaten every driver in the sport's history. By a country mile...

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I would love to see what he could do in a car minus all the driver aids and a limited amount of downforce. I am not saying he wouldnt be great, but we just dont, and possibly will never know
For most of his career (minus the TC years), Schuey and his rivals had fewer driver aids than the drivers of the 80's. The aero packages had to be significantly improved following the introduction of grooved tyres, but apart from the semi-auto paddle-shift gearboxes, the cars of the 90's and onwards were pretty basic when it came to driver aids.

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Anyway.....on a lighter note, McLaren have just been cleared!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39437
Well no surprises there...
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  #26  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by coupekid View Post

Anyway.....on a lighter note, McLaren have just been cleared!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39437
And reading the FIA's statement, not only clears McLaren, but unequivocally vindicates their actions - even using words like 'sensible' and 'standard practice'.

As far as I know, no other team protested the McLaren result. Sense has prevailed.

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  #27  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

Ok we all know this could go on and on. But a few things you said in the last post Ian do not seem right from some of the things I have read. Ross Brawn has said in the past that Schumacher is the best driver out on track when it comes to thinking not only what he is doing at the time but what he will have to do later on in the race.

Stewart, before my time will say nothing on that one.

Senna sorry rose tinted. He was not always a clean driver. He not only pushed one driver off track to win a title but also played tricks with others.

Mansell, yes great driver but was also in a car that was far ahead of its time when he won in 92. Having said that I was rooting for him.

Alain Prost , Only came back in 93 when he knew Mansell was out the team and he would then only have a rookie as a team mate. Ok one that would later go on to be world champion but a rookie that season no less.

Ian said
I could never understand why Ferrari did this; in effect they were saying that the driver was more important than the car. Enzo Ferrari would never have allowed this. The Schumacher Ferrari era team should have been renamed the Schumacher team.

Maybe so but remind me how long had Ferrari been without a championship before he came to the team.

I am so happy that I have been around to see Schumacher race, yes he was not always a clean driver but in years to come will this be held against him as much as it is ageist drivers of years gone by.
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  #28  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post

The very fact that we are here debating Michael Schumacher in this fashion is perfect evidence to support the fact that although he is on record as the most successful F1 driver of all time, that success is not equal to being the 'best' for a large number of people.
Oh, he's certainly unpopular in some circles. For a start he's German, he's a winner and he's uncompromising. Those qualities were set to go against him before he even turned a wheel. That said, he did himself no favours on occasions, but that criticism could easily have been levelled at many other world champions, particularly Senna.

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If he was the best, one just has to ask why he needed to control the team in order to stifle efforts by his team mates to beat him.
Well the team adored him. In fact the whole company continues to adore him. The cafes and restaurants near the factory adored him. He worked hard, he called people by their first names and he cared about each and every person he worked alongside. Most other drivers are out of the gates when the clock hits 5pm and very few have the relationships with their teams that Schey had...

This control thing............other than journalists' speculations (which I've seen and heard countless times in documentaries and articles), is there any absolute, hard evidence that Schuey controlled the Ferrari racing team? I'd expect - as I would with many drivers past and present - that his success granted him more involvement in some operational and strategic stuff, but control of the team....? Show me the proof...

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With someone else (Ross Brawn), largely, to do the thinking during the race, I wonder how he would have done in the less communications-led racing days?
Was Schuey the only driver of his era who had strategists working out how to pit-jump a position or how to bypass potential back-markers etc..? Er....no. So you should be asking how any modern driver would have done in the past, surely?

Or........how would Fangio, Moss or anyone else have managed in the circus that is modern F1..?

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To me, the greats are Stewart, Senna (though as a person I disliked him), Mansell (not for his personality but his racing ability) and Alain Prost (the great thinking GP driver). All these drivers faced up to real, un-suppressed, competition from their team mates but went on to be champions.
People use this team-mate business as if it actually means something. All of Schuey's rivals (I'm talking about good or great drivers of the past twelve years here) have had comparable or superior kit to his, and yet he still beat them soundly and consistently, although Hakkinen and Alonso proved that great design and a strong package could help produce world champions, albeit not in Schuey's league. That Ferrari went down a different road to other teams in terms of the status of it's own drivers is not itself a measure of Schuey's success or failure as a driver (or morally), it's merely that one team played things differently and reaped the benefits. It wasn't simply about Schuey, it was about the whole team.

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Schumacher manipulated his chances off the track and so avoided challenges from within his team, something none of the others needed to do.
Any evidence (as opposed to hearsay or gossip) that I can refer to?

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I could never understand why Ferrari did this; in effect they were saying that the driver was more important than the car. Enzo Ferrari would never have allowed this. The Schumacher Ferrari era team should have been renamed the Schumacher team.
Your bitterness is almost tangible . The resentment that people harbour over this guy just beggars belief, but then I suppose folk just love a hate figure. I just wonder if someone British like Jenson Button had had a career like Schuey's (under similar circumstances - good and bad), whether he'd be as loathed as Schumacher clearly is. As with many such things, we'll never know

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And Schumacher fans can argue all they like, but this cloud over his reputation will never ever go away. Sorry guys, but that's the unassailable truth.

Ian
That's just about the only thing I can agree with you on
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  #29  
Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

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Originally Posted by peter View Post
Ok we all know this could go on and on. But a few things you said in the last post Ian do not seem right from some of the things I have read. Ross Brawn has said in the past that Schumacher is the best driver out on track when it comes to thinking not only what he is doing at the time but what he will have to do later on in the race.
Fair enough, Peter, but my point was that there were many races won because of Brawn's brains, if you see my meaning . I certainly think credit where credit is due - like when MS lost gears in his Benetton and managed to adapt his driving to compensate. That was brilliant. Indeed, I have no argument with his performances, most of the time, on the track, (though there are those moments when you have to say the scheming side of his character showed through).

Quote:
Stewart, before my time will say nothing on that one.
Complete opposite to Scumacher - he actively promoted some of his team mates' careers and became great personal friends with several of them, notably Francos Cevert, who sadly died on the track.

Stewart retired from racing after winning 27 races (out of 99 starts across 9 years) and three championships (69, 71, 73). There were far fewer races per year than today, so his potential to win was not as great as it is for drivers of the more modern era. The cars were also a lot less reliable. He was only 34 when he retired and he was at the height of his career. He quit because he didn't want to die behind the wheel as so many of his friends had.

[quote]Senna sorry rose tinted. He was not always a clean driver. He not only pushed one driver off track to win a title but also played tricks with others.[/quote}

Oh yes - I never forgave him for pushing Prost off at the Japanese GP in order to secure his title. Certainly a flawed gem, but unlike Schumacher, he was happy to race anyone as a team mate - he was afraid of nobody.

Quote:
Mansell, yes great driver but was also in a car that was far ahead of its time when he won in 92. Having said that I was rooting for him.
Again, that's true - the fly by wire, active suspension, Williams was a real beast But his racing grit is what I remember, and again he never flinched at the prospect of a top driver being his team mate.

Quote:
Alain Prost , Only came back in 93 when he knew Mansell was out the team and he would then only have a rookie as a team mate. Ok one that would later go on to be world champion but a rookie that season no less.
I'm not sure Prost was afraid of Mansell as a team mate - he'd beaten him at Ferrari a few seasons earlier. But remember Prost had both won and lost championships with Senna as his team mate. I don't think he had anything to prove regarding his ability to race and beat the best in the same car.

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Ian said
I could never understand why Ferrari did this; in effect they were saying that the driver was more important than the car. Enzo Ferrari would never have allowed this. The Schumacher Ferrari era team should have been renamed the Schumacher team.

Maybe so but remind me how long had Ferrari been without a championship before he came to the team.

I am so happy that I have been around to see Schumacher race, yes he was not always a clean driver but in years to come will this be held against him as much as it is ageist drivers of years gone by.
Ferrari won lots of championships before Schumacher came along. Securing Schumacher's services was an act of desperation by the post-Enzo Ferrari management. Frankly, Ferrari couldn't build a good enough car - couldn't compete against the excellence of the British-based teams (including Benetton, from whom they poached not only Schumacher, but many of the key team personnel).

Now, Ferrari have rediscovered how to make a great car. And that's what's important to Ferrari in the long term.

Ian
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Old 30-05-07
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Re: McLaren under investigation!

Again I must pick you up on something.

Ferrari won lots of championships before Schumacher came along. Securing Schumacher's services was an act of desperation by the post-Enzo Ferrari management. Frankly, Ferrari couldn't build a good enough car - couldn't compete against the excellence of the British-based teams (including Benetton, from whom they poached not only Schumacher, but many of the key team personnel).

Yes they had won loads. But if you look at the first year he came into the team he had more wins in the car then many other drivers had done in years before. I think you will agree that the Ferrari that year was not one of the best cars on track so again a lot of it must be put down to the driver. I agree he did not win it all on his own but he was a member of a team. And even if many of those people were poached is that not what team building is all about getting the best people all in one place at the same time.

Oh and Bearface I think we are well out numbered
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