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  • #16
    Re: Lightroom

    Originally posted by Stephen View Post
    Ron, I would agree with Ian, this is a good conversion, in so far as you have a very clean image with good black & whites. The composition is good too. However the same two things struck me about the slightly blown highlights on the boat and the fact that it appeared slightly oversharpened. TBH I wouldn't worry too much about the highlights, it looks like it was very contrasty light anyway, I would however ease off on the sharpening.

    This Lightroom seems to be a great program, I had an earlier Beta version, but decided to leave it till it was released fully
    If his handle "Lumix" has anything to do with his camera. I have a Lumix, and this is one of my gripes - they do not handle a very broad range of contrast well. Best to stay away from this type of shots when you can.

    PS. My son also has one, same thing with his.
    Steve40.

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    • #17
      Re: Lightroom

      Originally posted by lumix View Post
      All very valid points George. I find it easier to analise someone else's work than my own. Strange thing is that at full screen size the first looks just about right, but once re-sized for web it looked over sharpened. Originally I ended up with this version in colour. Not sure now if I prefer the B&W or the Colour.

      Ron,

      I saw awhile ago this color version in the galleries. Personally and as I said before this photo is from the type of photos that look good in B&W and also in color. I think everything relies in personal preference.

      Generally I like colorful photos as life is. Though some of them look nice also in B&W and sometimes even better in B&W than than in color.

      If I had to choose color or B&W version for this specific photo, I would keep the color version.

      One hint that everybody should have in mind and apart from playing around with photos of color and B&W versions, variations and transformations is:

      Memories in life are not only connected with places, themes or scenes...they are also connected with colors, regardless of how pleasing they are.

      So there are special types of photos that would look nice in B&W, contrast and tones might look better in some of them than in color, but there will always be partial memorial themes since they lack color.
      That for me is the only and most important disadvantage of B&W photos, that B&W photography can never superpass not matter of how many strong fans of B&W photography exist.
      Personally I only try to transform to B&W these photos that the scenery or theme they include, is so intense, so I will only loose the minimum from the lack of color.

      Ron, I also did some experiment with your B&W version. I wanted to send you my version that shows exactly what I was saying in my previous post, but you have disabled to receive e-mails from other users.
      Maybe I will put it up on my private album and send you a message with a link.


      Regards

      George

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Lightroom

        Ron,

        Here is a reworked version from me, on your photo, explaining better what I was saying in my comments in the 2nd softer version you supplied.






        Regards


        George

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        • #19
          Re: Lightroom

          Originally posted by lumix View Post
          Thanks everyone for the rapid response. I nearly pulled this image out when I see it in thread. It did not quite look so sharpened in Lightroom. I have tried to take on board all comments so here is a re-work. Also moved the image up slightly in frame to see if the composition suffered. Hope I've got it about right this time. Lightroom takes a bit of navigating but I will stick with it and see what it's capable of when I know how to use it.

          Nice to see someone else playing with Lightroom, it can challenge the user until they grow accustomed to its different thinking, then it makes a lot of sense.

          As to the picture, yep it works as a B/W and it does in colour; I do prefer the second version of the B/W to the first version of the B/W (we used to refer to over contrasty pictures as soot & whitewash). Everyone commented on the blown highlights but failed to mention the blocked up shadows, the second slightly lower contrast improves this area as well.
          When sharpening I never do it in Lightroom but use a method now done via channels in Photoshop that can allows quite heavy sharpening without the halo effect.

          Patrick

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          • #20
            Re: Lightroom

            Originally posted by Patrick View Post
            Nice to see someone else playing with Lightroom, it can challenge the user until they grow accustomed to its different thinking, then it makes a lot of sense.

            As to the picture, yep it works as a B/W and it does in colour; I do prefer the second version of the B/W to the first version of the B/W (we used to refer to over contrasty pictures as soot & whitewash). Everyone commented on the blown highlights but failed to mention the blocked up shadows, the second slightly lower contrast improves this area as well.
            When sharpening I never do it in Lightroom but use a method now done via channels in Photoshop that can allows quite heavy sharpening without the halo effect.

            Patrick
            Patrick I was more than pleased to see a reply from you. I seem to recall that you are also experimenting with Lightroom. I must confess I was really out of order posting a result from Lightroom when I have only been using it a few hours. Main problem was after downloading Lightroom I was too eager to try it and randomly selected an image to play around with. I didn't even think about it's usefulness as a B&W. I was quite impressed with the result so thought I would post it to see what others thoughts were. I have certainly learnt that you can't get away with rubbish on this forum. But it's nice to get so much help and advice. I've take it all on board and will apply same to my next effort. Archangel's re-work of my image has improved it no end and I do appreciate his time to show how it could be further improved. Steve mentioned that Panasonic Lumix cameras don't cope with high contrast. I had become aware of that and I'm currently reducing the exposure to combat blown highlights. The image I used was from an earlier batch that I had not used compensation on. One last thing Patrick. How do you save in Lightroom. The save function is greyed out so I have had to export my image to my documents and then post it from there.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Lightroom

              Originally posted by lumix View Post
              Patrick I was more than pleased to see a reply from you. I seem to recall that you are also experimenting with Lightroom. I must confess I was really out of order posting a result from Lightroom when I have only been using it a few hours. Main problem was after downloading Lightroom I was too eager to try it and randomly selected an image to play around with. I didn't even think about it's usefulness as a B&W. I was quite impressed with the result so thought I would post it to see what others thoughts were. I have certainly learnt that you can't get away with rubbish on this forum. But it's nice to get so much help and advice. I've take it all on board and will apply same to my next effort. Archangel's re-work of my image has improved it no end and I do appreciate his time to show how it could be further improved. Steve mentioned that Panasonic Lumix cameras don't cope with high contrast. I had become aware of that and I'm currently reducing the exposure to combat blown highlights. The image I used was from an earlier batch that I had not used compensation on. One last thing Patrick. How do you save in Lightroom. The save function is greyed out so I have had to export my image to my documents and then post it from there.
              No one is out of order posting pictures, that is what the forum is for and if you had only been using Lightroom for a few hours then a really well done is called for.

              You canít save from Lightroom in any way I know, there isnít actually any need, all Lightroom adjustments and adjustments only are save automatically as info to a sidecar file, the original is not touched in any way and can be returned to original state at any time, even months or years later, each and every image get its own sidecar file. There is also a history for each image which is also saved in the sidecar file and that makes it possible to return at any piont in the development of that image. Again you can return to the image anytime in the future and the history is still there. If you crop in Lightroom as I do when the need arises, even this can be altered back to original or redropped at any time in the future.

              To work in Photoshop or Elements (I donít think at this stage images can be exported with the sidecar file to any other editing software) you can select open in Photoshop as an edited file or export it to Photoshop, there is a difference.
              1. A cropped image sent to Photoshop in the edit format will reduce the file size to reflect the crop in other words no interrelation up or down takes place.
              2. A cropped image sent to Photoshop as an exported file allows you to make selections as to how it goes there including the DPI.
              3. From Photoshop do any editing you want and when saveing it always do a save as and save to a finished folder which you need to create. If you leave the location to Photoshop it will be in the Lightroom ďmanaged imageĒ folder, but still create the finished folder there otherwise it will overwrite that original file unless you rename and all your lightroom info & history could be compromised I have never tested it to find out.
              4. An image sent to Photoshop as an Edit will automatically show the new edited image as well as the original in Lightroom, but exported to Photoshop only the original will show the new edited version and will need to be imported as a new image and if you do any further work on this image in lightroom it will get a new sidecar file with the new info but reflecting its new Photoshop edited status.

              If you are unclear and need any of this information please say so.

              There is so much I have learnt I could go on for pages, but there is also so much more for me to learn as well.

              Patrick

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              • #22
                Re: Lightroom

                Originally posted by Patrick View Post
                No one is out of order posting pictures, that is what the forum is for and if you had only been using Lightroom for a few hours then a really well done is called for.
                Completely agree with Patrick on this one t-up

                This is kind of a repeat of what Patrick said, but it's worth underlining: Lightroom (and the similar Apple Aperture) are 'non-destructive' and do not alter the original file. Instead, a clone of the file is loaded in to the program's workspace and the actions you make to enhance the image are stored in a so-called 'sidecar' file, maybe along with some thumbnail or lower resolution versions of the image.

                This means you can repeatedly come back to the same file and build on the changes you made earlier, or even, I believe, go back in time and discard some of the change you made.

                In some circumstances, the original file need not even be present, though many image enhancement functions will not be available unless it is. This was from an Adobe Exec comparing Lightroom with Aperture I spoke to at Photokina:
                Since our very first beta, Lightroom has been able to manage images that are not stored on a local drive. Lightroom can build full-resolution previews for these non-local files, and these previews can be used for generating prints, slideshows, Web galleries, and so on, even if the original file is not present. You can, of course, also modify the metadata, such as keywords. However, you cannot modify Develop options for these images until you reconnect the drive containing the original raw image. Thatís because we must be operating on the original raw data in order to preview the results of image processing settings accurately.
                It appears that Aperture, now that it has opened up its library to allow for non-local files, handles the images in a similar way to Lightroom. You can use the preview images for output purposes or to change metadata, but you canít modify the conversion settings unless you have the original.


                Finally, when you have finished, you can export to DNG (a standardised RAW format), JPEG, TIFF, or Photoshop PSD.

                The idea is that the sidecar store of enhancements will be compatible with various versions of Photoshop and the Creative Suite media browser, Bridge, but there have been some teething problems along the way.

                Ian
                Founder/editor
                Digital Photography Now (DPNow.com)
                Twitter: www.twitter.com/ian_burley
                Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/dpnow/
                Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/ianburley/

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                • #23
                  Re: Lightroom

                  Thankyou Patrick and Ian for an in depth explanation. The sidecar file must be similar to that used by Picasa. This is also an editing programme that dose not alter the original file and allows you to add to or subject at a later date. I find that very useful for doing quick edits and then being able to open the original file in my main editing software. I'm sure I will like Lightroom a lot more once I get to grips with it. Regards the saving bit I'm still puzzled as to why there are save and save as options in the drop-down menu when you click on edit. They are greyed out but must be there for some reason. I shall Google for instructions on this point. This is a good time of the year to be learning as there is not much incentive to charge the camera batteries at the moment.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Lightroom

                    Hi Lumix,
                    The 'Save' option is what you click on to make sure that the current version of what you are working on is not lost if you have a disaster, eg a power cut, an unexpected shut-down, or a slip of the finger. You are advised to hit this after you have made any significant change to the job. This saved project will be updated next time you hit 'Save'.
                    The 'Save as' option is a signal that you have finished work on the current job, at least for the time being, and you can chose the mode that the project will be saved in, eg jpeg, tiff, etc..
                    Does that help?

                    Roger

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Lightroom

                      Originally posted by lumix View Post
                      Thankyou Patrick and Ian for an in depth explanation. The sidecar file must be similar to that used by Picasa. This is also an editing programme that dose not alter the original file and allows you to add to or subject at a later date. I find that very useful for doing quick edits and then being able to open the original file in my main editing software. I'm sure I will like Lightroom a lot more once I get to grips with it. Regards the saving bit I'm still puzzled as to why there are save and save as options in the drop-down menu when you click on edit. They are greyed out but must be there for some reason. I shall Google for instructions on this point. This is a good time of the year to be learning as there is not much incentive to charge the camera batteries at the moment.
                      You must bear in mind that Lightroom is not a final product, itís a trial Beta with still work to do and these greyed out functions may come into play with the retail version, or even disappear. Other tools may be added and some may be removed, many are hoping Adobe will relent and include a browser alongside the library, I am one of those.
                      There are very strong rumours of limited cloning and healing tools, in fact they have been demonstrated in the US.
                      Itís my hope that it will eventually develop in time to be a complete one stop program, incorporating many of the features we cherish in Photoshop.

                      Patrick

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Lightroom

                        Originally posted by rogleale View Post
                        Hi Lumix,
                        The 'Save' option is what you click on to make sure that the current version of what you are working on is not lost if you have a disaster, eg a power cut, an unexpected shut-down, or a slip of the finger. You are advised to hit this after you have made any significant change to the job. This saved project will be updated next time you hit 'Save'.
                        The 'Save as' option is a signal that you have finished work on the current job, at least for the time being, and you can chose the mode that the project will be saved in, eg jpeg, tiff, etc..
                        Does that help?

                        Roger
                        On all my computer's (2 PC's & a laptop) they remain grayed out and unusable whatever I do.

                        Patrick

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