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Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

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  • #16
    Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

    Originally posted by Horacio View Post
    Is it Raw the real master file??
    I agree mostly with all that has been said. I also shoot raw and medium size jpegs. Nonetheless I have some doubts about that policy. Is it really the raw the gold standard for archiving files? One disadvantage of shooting raws is that when you buy a new camera, those files won´t be readable by software one or two versions old and you will be obliged or better said, compelled, to buy the last upgrade or version. You may use the DNG equivalent to avoid this problem. On the other hand, we must recognize that new cameras have different compression algorrithms for jpegs so the quality is actually less compromised and probabley similar or equivalent to the raws. To edit those jpegs files you might create a virtual copy or a new copy and save the original as master. Another matter is the continuous changing of raw files from each new manufacturer´s camera that requires new plugins that only work in last versions software. Also this continuous variation in raws along time and cameras, could get us to the point that in many years in advance (let us say 20 years more), such old and constantly variable raws won´t be readable any more by the existing new programs on those times. That will probably not happen with jpegs because they are the gold standard in imaging everywhere in the world and in the PCs operating systems. Lastly, we must recognize that the quality of the final picture or print is also related to the technical and personal skills on editing the files, probably more thatn in the type of the file. Regards, Horacio.
    Can't agree with very much on this post.
    I have been digital now since 1999 and all my RAW files are still readable. Photoshop, Lightroom and many other processing programs are backward compatible. Yes each new camera has its own RAW file version but the old verions remain in readable. As you say DNG is also an option.
    JPG is defiantly not a good idea for storing images, it degrades the image on opening and closing. If in doubt TIFF or PSD are better, both are universaly acceptable in the same way JPG is. I know they use more space but that is relatively cheap these days I see no problem.

    JPG simply throws away to much info for my liking. As it happens I did a experiment only last week on my Lumix. Taking pictures saving each image in both JPG & RAW. The JPG although very good was none the less lacking in tonal values and general impact compared with the RAW version.

    Patrick

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    • #17
      Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

      Thank you Patrick. I do not know for certain but thought that the degrading in opening and closing JPEGs is related with the compression degree. IS that true??

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      • #18
        Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

        Originally posted by Horacio View Post
        Thank you Patrick. I do not know for certain but thought that the degrading in opening and closing JPEGs is related with the compression degree. IS that true??
        Hi Horacio

        I don't actually understand the full Maths involved Ian may be able to answer that, but I would think so.
        JPG are not actually compressed, the are reduced by discarding information calculated to be replaceable, the bigger the reduction in file size the more info is thrown away. On opening calculations are made to rebuild the image, a bit like interpolation that makes small files bigger.
        This was fine for what JPG was originally developed, Graphics where colours are often solid and there are less of them. Photo files are more detailed with thousands of colours, under the circumstances JPG does a remarkably good job.
        Tomorrow I will post a couple of results from my experiment, which was prompted by the self same discussion with a club member.

        Patrick

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        • #19
          Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

          Originally posted by Patrick View Post
          JPG is defiantly not a good idea for storing images, it degrades the image on opening and closing.
          Patrick
          I think this needs clarifying for anyone reading it, opening and closing a jpeg image does not degrade it. Only if you edit/resave the original jpeg image is there any degredation.
          Regards Paul.
          One day I hope to be the person my dogs think I am.

          My Flickr Photos

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          • #20
            Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

            Originally posted by OlyPaul View Post
            I think this needs clarifying for anyone reading it, opening and closing a jpeg image does not degrade it. Only if you edit/resave the original jpeg image is there any degredation.
            So it is said, but there are those that believe some degradation still takes place, I am one. Could well be wrong but I personaly would rather be on the save side.

            The fact remains shooting JPG is not the way to go if quality is the photographers Top aim. If its happy snaps or smaller prints or simply to post straight to the web then JPG is more than good enough. But if it's large prints A3 and above, and exhibition quality prints are wanted then RAW is the way, and save as TIFF or PSD.

            I personally can't see the piont of buying good equipment that gives quality and then compromising that quality by using JPG.

            Patrick

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            • #21
              Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

              My understanding is that merely opening and closing a JPEG has no detrimental effect on it, whereas re-saving a JPEG after, say, re-editing it will compress an already compressed file. Do that many times and yes, the quality will start to suffer. JPEGS have the advantage of being a universal industry standard. If ordering prints from a lab it is likely you will need to supply JPEGS. These days wedding and, particularly, event photographers like to be able to display pictures on a laptop whilst actually at the event and, with no time to process the raws, rely on JPEGS for this. They may well shoot raw, too and develop later, but JPEGS on the day can generate a lot of additional sales.

              Admittedly, some OOC JPEGS require more work than others, which is self defeating if they need a lot of processing. One advantage of Olympus cameras is that they have long been regarded as producing some of the best JPEGS in the business.

              Personally, I tend to use raw for landscape shoots, where I tend to shoot less pictures to start with and fully intend to process each frame meticulously. I also use raw for situations which are challenging to the camera, for example indoor events when I'm working at the camera's limit for acceptable high ISO as I know that when processing later every drop of quality and bit of extra control will be crucial. in these situations I simultaneously shoot small size JPEGS which are able to be viewed in Windows and help me to locate the raws I require.

              For more casual walk-about situations, outdoors in good light and when I might be taking a lot of shots, often I will shoot JPEGs only. For this, the quality is good enough.
              John Perriment

              A photograph is more than a record of what you see - it's a window to your soul

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              • #22
                Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                Originally posted by John Perriment View Post
                My understanding is that merely opening and closing a JPEG has no detrimental effect on it, whereas re-saving a JPEG after, say, re-editing it will compress an already compressed file. Do that many times and yes, the quality will start to suffer. JPEGS have the advantage of being a universal industry standard. If ordering prints from a lab it is likely you will need to supply JPEGS. These days wedding and, particularly, event photographers like to be able to display pictures on a laptop whilst actually at the event and, with no time to process the raws, rely on JPEGS for this. They may well shoot raw, too and develop later, but JPEGS on the day can generate a lot of additional sales.

                Admittedly, some OOC JPEGS require more work than others, which is self defeating if they need a lot of processing. One advantage of Olympus cameras is that they have long been regarded as producing some of the best JPEGS in the business.

                Personally, I tend to use raw for landscape shoots, where I tend to shoot less pictures to start with and fully intend to process each frame meticulously. I also use raw for situations which are challenging to the camera, for example indoor events when I'm working at the camera's limit for acceptable high ISO as I know that when processing later every drop of quality and bit of extra control will be crucial. in these situations I simultaneously shoot small size JPEGS which are able to be viewed in Windows and help me to locate the raws I require.

                For more casual walk-about situations, outdoors in good light and when I might be taking a lot of shots, often I will shoot JPEGs only. For this, the quality is good enough.
                I don't argue against the use of JPG they have their place, but in my view not for storage purposes and certainly not for top quality prints.
                It is fair to say my need for JPG's is virtually none existent so never shoot JPG.

                I was going to post examples to demonstrate my piont but a change in the way to post to a thread have changed and it is necassary to have the image on my website, or post to the general gallery. Since they are not representative of what I do I have no wish to put them in a gallery and certainly not on my website.

                Patrick

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                • #23
                  Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                  Hmmmm, the Gallery on this forum (unlike some othes) doesn't seem to have an option to hide pictures so that only the owner can see them. That would be a solution but it doesn't seem to be available.
                  John Perriment

                  A photograph is more than a record of what you see - it's a window to your soul

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                  • #24
                    Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                    I'm in the RAW only camp since I like to tinker with most images in LR and Photoshop. In fact teh only time I shot RAW + jpeg combined was when I had a new camera which had RAW images unsupported by LR.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                      Originally posted by John Perriment View Post
                      Hmmmm, the Gallery on this forum (unlike some othes) doesn't seem to have an option to hide pictures so that only the owner can see them. That would be a solution but it doesn't seem to be available.
                      I didn't see this originally - you can create password-protected galleries for images that you want to restrict access to. But please be aware that moderators CAN see these images.

                      Ian
                      Founder/editor
                      Digital Photography Now (DPNow.com)
                      Twitter: www.twitter.com/ian_burley
                      Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/dpnow/
                      Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/ianburley/

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                      • #26
                        Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                        I have just tried posting an image in a private password-protected album to an open forum thread and it does work. If you try to click the image through to the album you will be asked for the password. So you can keep this album hidden in the forum but post its contents to the main forum if you wish See:

                        http://dpnow.com/forum2/showthread.p...9473#post69473

                        Ian
                        Founder/editor
                        Digital Photography Now (DPNow.com)
                        Twitter: www.twitter.com/ian_burley
                        Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/dpnow/
                        Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/ianburley/

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                        • #27
                          Re: Raw + Jpeg any advantages ?

                          Since buying a 7 inch tablet recently I have started using raw + jpg basic. I just have to connect the tablet to the camera via the USB and an OTG cable and the jpgs are immediately shown in the tablet gallery. Great when the camera has a fairly small low res screen and the tablet is 1280 pixels.

                          I still use the DNG (raw) files for final production.

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                          • #28
                            I do the same with the Fuji x10 and the nexus
                            On return home from a trip I have the draws to process

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