Digital Photography Now - www.dpnow.com  
 
advertisements

Go Back   DPNow.com Discussion Forum > Hard copy > Colour management

Colour management The rock on which consistent and accurate digital imaging workflow stands. If you don't know what colour management means, you need this board.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-10-11
Garry's Avatar
Garry Garry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West Sussex. UK
Posts: 748
Thanks: 71
Thanked 70 Times in 69 Posts
Likes: 188
Liked at 164 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Garry is on a distinguished road
Printing problems!

Hi guy's

I, like thousands of others, am having colour management problems.

What I see on my monitor, is not what I get in print.
I have read numerous threads in various forums including here about this problem. I have found a way of sorting the problem for myself. But it is a bit hit and miss, and I would rather have something a little more exact.

I have been advised that the Colormunki Photo is very good, in that it not only profiles the monitor, but that it profiles your printer in line with the monitor.

These are not cheap. But would be worth every penny, if they work.

Has anyone here used or have experience with the Colormunki Photo, Please?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-10-11
rogleale rogleale is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 603
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked at 18 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 0
rogleale is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Hi Garry,
What is the problem exactly - colour or brightness?

Roger
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-10-11
Garry's Avatar
Garry Garry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West Sussex. UK
Posts: 748
Thanks: 71
Thanked 70 Times in 69 Posts
Likes: 188
Liked at 164 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Garry is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Hi Roger

Most definitely, the problem is brightness.
I can duplicate the brightness if i increase brightness by 36 in photoshop.

But this depends on the background of the image. +36 if the background is dark ( Trees or similar )
+30 if the background is bright ( Sky or siilar )

But it isn't an exact science as you can see, and was hoping that this calibrator might help.

I have tried to get info from the printer manufacturer, with out much sucess.

I use sRGB all the way through, as my camera is sRGB. I process and save in sRGB and the printer settings are sRGB.

I only use genuine manufacturers paper and ink.

If I start to add Gamma, it does increase the brightness, to a degree, but not enough, and the colour starts to change with this.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-10-11
mike_j mike_j is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stamford, Lincs
Posts: 548
Thanks: 14
Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts
Likes: 19
Liked at 126 Times in 88 Posts
Rep Power: 0
mike_j is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Matching brightness of monitor and print is a common problem. Have a look at this article which suggests using a camera to set a standard screen brightness.


http://www.hermitage-ps.co.uk/monitor_luminance.htm


I find though that if the monitor brightness is right for printing the screen looks too dim for normal use.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-10-11
rogleale rogleale is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 603
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked at 18 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 0
rogleale is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Hi Mike,
A good read, but he is wrong to assume that the recommended brightness of 120 cd/m is always correct. I had to reduce the brightness of my monitor, an LG Flatron W2242T, to 90 to get the prints to match the screen image. I had to reduce the brightness of my daughter's Samtron 94V to 95 to get the match.
I don't know if the Color Munki provides an adjustment for this but the screen controls should.
Roger
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-10-11
Garry's Avatar
Garry Garry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West Sussex. UK
Posts: 748
Thanks: 71
Thanked 70 Times in 69 Posts
Likes: 188
Liked at 164 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Garry is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

I very much apreciate your help with this problem, Roger and Mike

Maybe I am being naive. But if it does what it is meant to. That is profile the colours in the printer, to match the colours on the screen. I would have thought they would have to be the same brightness, or they wouldnt be the same colour, surely!

Re the link on Luminance!

Sorry! I must be a bit daft. I cant get my head around that!

It says that usually monitor screens are too bright, and we usually have to darken our photos, which results in dark prints.

Fine! I understand that.

Then it gives you a method of testing your screens luminance, which I tried.

It gives an example of your camera showing a shutter speed of 1/60th. Funnily enough. That is exactly the result I got.

It then advises that you adjust the brightness, on the screen, till you achieve a shutter speed of 1/100 - 1/125

I must be missing something here. To increase the shutter speed. You have to turn the brightness of the screen up!

Is this not the opposite of what it was saying at the start?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-10-11
mike_j mike_j is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stamford, Lincs
Posts: 548
Thanks: 14
Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts
Likes: 19
Liked at 126 Times in 88 Posts
Rep Power: 0
mike_j is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry View Post

It gives an example of your camera showing a shutter speed of 1/60th. Funnily enough. That is exactly the result I got.

It then advises that you adjust the brightness, on the screen, till you achieve a shutter speed of 1/100 - 1/125

I must be missing something here. To increase the shutter speed. You have to turn the brightness of the screen up!

Is this not the opposite of what it was saying at the start?
I think the 1/60th is just an example to show how it works, he is suggesting that standard settings may give readings of 1/200th or so.

I do agree with Roger that the recommended brightness of 120 cd/m seems too bright, mine is set at about 80 using the camera method.

What test photo do you use - this seems to be the most popular one

http://www.scienceandart.org/photosh...argetA4Ltr.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-10-11
Patrick's Avatar
Patrick Patrick is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Walsall, Pelsall, West Midlands UK
Posts: 1,787
Blog Entries: 7
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
Patrick is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry View Post
Hi guy's

I, like thousands of others, am having colour management problems.

What I see on my monitor, is not what I get in print.
I have read numerous threads in various forums including here about this problem. I have found a way of sorting the problem for myself. But it is a bit hit and miss, and I would rather have something a little more exact.

I have been advised that the Colormunki Photo is very good, in that it not only profiles the monitor, but that it profiles your printer in line with the monitor.

These are not cheap. But would be worth every penny, if they work.

Has anyone here used or have experience with the Colormunki Photo, Please?
I can confirm how good the Colormunki is. The Photo club where I am a member has one to lend to members for a small fee.
I have profiled my iMac, and made print profiles for my Epson 2880 very successfully. I had a Spyder Pro monitor & print profiling kit also very good but the Colormunki I found better and easier to use.

One of the problems many is having the setting of the screen monitor too bright (factory settings). Tone it down, it may seem flat and lifeless at first but very quickly you adjust and your printing may improve even without profiling.

I your finances can stand it go for the Colormunki.

Patrick
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-10-11
Garry's Avatar
Garry Garry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West Sussex. UK
Posts: 748
Thanks: 71
Thanked 70 Times in 69 Posts
Likes: 188
Liked at 164 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Garry is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Hi Patrick

Thank you so much for this info. This is what I was hoping for.

So it does look as though this might be the answer to my dark prints!

Didn't know that Spyder did a monitor/printer calibrator!

Looks like the bank is going to get a hammering!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-10-11
Patrick's Avatar
Patrick Patrick is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Walsall, Pelsall, West Midlands UK
Posts: 1,787
Blog Entries: 7
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
Patrick is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry View Post
Hi Roger


I use sRGB all the way through, as my camera is sRGB. I process and save in sRGB and the printer settings are sRGB.

I only use genuine manufacturers paper and ink.
I would suggest you change the settings on your camera to RGB rather than sRGB this is for web purposes and has a narrower color gamut. RGB has a wider color gamut. The RGB can always be changed to sRGB for publishing to the web

It shouldn't make any difference to quality using third party papers or third party inks, providing profiles are made. Although in the case of ink its probably best to use the genuine ones if you are not sure of the quality of third party inks, avoid at all cost cheap third party inks.

If you are using genuine ink & paper the profiles provided by the print manufacturer should give satisfactory results, you don't mention the make of printer. If you have to change you monitor to print, or adjust your printer away from the correct profile for the paper used then you definitely need to profile monitor and printer. I have a profile for each type of paper I use usualy Permajet, Royal, Permajet Distinction or for art paper Permajet Museum Classic. All top quality papers and expensive.
I have spent many hours, paper and ink on printing over the years and one thing has become clear CONSISTENCY, and the best possible quality of paper with good profiles. Manufacturers such as the aforementioned Permajet, and others like Fotospeed will make custom profiles free for their own papers, you simply download the target file and print according to instruction and post it back to them, they email the profile.
A thought comes to mind, best prints are obtained by setting up the printer the best way. I use as stated an Epson I always set manage by Photoshop, select my chosen profile and switch OFF colour management. There is a very good reason for this if colour management is not switched off any print profiles selected (even the generic ones supplied with the printer) may clash with management settings and give incorrect and inconsistent results.

Patrick
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-10-11
Patrick's Avatar
Patrick Patrick is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Walsall, Pelsall, West Midlands UK
Posts: 1,787
Blog Entries: 7
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
Patrick is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry View Post
Hi Patrick

Thank you so much for this info. This is what I was hoping for.

So it does look as though this might be the answer to my dark prints!

Didn't know that Spyder did a monitor/printer calibrator!

Looks like the bank is going to get a hammering!
The Spyder Kit consists of two units, the Spyder we all know for the monitor and another for the prints, as opposed to the one unit approach used by Colormonki.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-10-11
Garry's Avatar
Garry Garry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West Sussex. UK
Posts: 748
Thanks: 71
Thanked 70 Times in 69 Posts
Likes: 188
Liked at 164 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 15
Garry is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Thanks for this, Patrick

A lot there for me to take in!

Point taken on sRGB. Will adjust that!

I am using an HP printer that is hard wired into my PC. But wireless for the rest of the family. It probably isn't the photographers choice of printer, but I had to take the families needs into account.
I Have been using HP everyday glossy, as this is already profiled into the printer.
I cant remember is I turned off colour management or not. I will try that tomorrow.
I have also been advised to use Permajet by another photographer. Will give that a try.

The way that I have been getting over the problem till now is.

Process the photo as normal. Then make a copy and bring the brightness right up. Then save the copy and print from that.
Not very satisfactory, and not very precise.

Again. Thanks. Will try out your suggestions tomorrow. Have already reduced the brightness on my monitor from 90 to 70. Doesn't look much different to be honest.
Or I have just got used to it fast!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-10-11
Patrick's Avatar
Patrick Patrick is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Walsall, Pelsall, West Midlands UK
Posts: 1,787
Blog Entries: 7
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
Patrick is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry View Post
Thanks for this, Patrick

A lot there for me to take in!

Point taken on sRGB. Will adjust that!

I am using an HP printer that is hard wired into my PC. But wireless for the rest of the family. It probably isn't the photographers choice of printer, but I had to take the families needs into account.
I Have been using HP everyday glossy, as this is already profiled into the printer.
I cant remember is I turned off colour management or not. I will try that tomorrow.
I have also been advised to use Permajet by another photographer. Will give that a try.

The way that I have been getting over the problem till now is.

Process the photo as normal. Then make a copy and bring the brightness right up. Then save the copy and print from that.
Not very satisfactory, and not very precise.

Again. Thanks. Will try out your suggestions tomorrow. Have already reduced the brightness on my monitor from 90 to 70. Doesn't look much different to be honest.
Or I have just got used to it fast!
As a work round for the time being, only if you are using an edit program with layers, Photoshop, PS Elements, Paintshop Pro, there are others around.
Adjust your image the way you want it, then add a layer to compensate for your printing. Save the layer and add it to other images when printing, worked for me some years ago when I was having trouble, or simply make a note of the compensation that works and apply it every time you print, but undo before saving otherwise those images won't print correctly when you sort things out.

Patrick
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-10-11
rogleale rogleale is offline
Forum veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 603
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked at 18 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 0
rogleale is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Hi Garry,
My advice would be don't spend any money yet on Color Munki or whatever but get the brightness problem solved first. Colour management is a whole new field waiting to confuse you when you have the brightness correct.
Are you sure that your printer is using the right profile? In the HP driver can you switch colour management off?
If you can stop the printer managing colour, do so and leave it to PS. In the print dialogue of PS under 'Color Management' select 'Document' then set 'PS manages colors' and make sure that 'Printer manages colors' is de-selected.
Select an image to test the settings and in PS select >Edit > Convert to profile > sRGB and start the printing process.
If you have time let us know the result.

Roger

Last edited by rogleale; 10-10-11 at 08:32 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-10-11
mike_j mike_j is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stamford, Lincs
Posts: 548
Thanks: 14
Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts
Likes: 19
Liked at 126 Times in 88 Posts
Rep Power: 0
mike_j is on a distinguished road
Re: Printing problems!

Garry,

I have a spare Spyder 2 if you are interested. Send me a pm if you are interested - I think they fetch about 30 on ebay. Does the job of colour matching efficiently but won't solve brightness problems.

I don't use it because I run with twin screens and the graphics card can only handle one custom profile so I keep getting error messages. Anyway my main screen, a Dell Ultrasharp is very accurate.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problems with Threads Jocelyn Walker General discussion 7 09-01-11 01:15 PM
SOLVED Problems caused by IE8 Stephen Computer conundrums 14 09-07-09 05:37 PM
DVD drive problems Josh Bear Computer conundrums 8 16-11-08 05:17 PM
Has anyone else heard of these problems? cowcrzy06 General discussion 4 17-09-07 11:39 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:19 AM.


Digital Photography Now, 2001-2017, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger